We knew it would happen once the grid began to grow, we hoped & still hope, that the community Spirit we all felt when we 1st rezzed in can be sustained throughout our lives in there so it never becomes the unfriendly, greedy place that SL became. But already we see wars going on within our community... Residents being afraid to speak their mind on the forums for fear of being trolled, or worse still ... discovering their content being 'copied' & offered at rediculously low prices...They may not be direct copies, but they are being made to look similar, even named similar & then offered either freely or for next to nothing by creators who should know better.Why has this war taken place you might wonder? Because of pricing... most residents feel, ourselves included... that there is not a need for creators from SL to bring their content here & double the price tag, which is exactly what a lot of them have been doing. That is their right of course, it wasnt a You Must not do this it was more of a Why do you do this.. when there is no need. There are no real overheads in IW, uploading is completely free, tiers are a fraction of what they cost in SL. I know its harder to bring out content here... I know because I have been doing it since April 2009! I have my work arounds which I have passed along to new creators coming in, but that shouldnt make for a hefty price ticket.. should it? All of what has been said has been Advise only, yet one creator has taken this whole thing personaly & saw it as a direct attack upon themselves, which simply isnt true... but what they are now doing is completely underhanded in our opinion and will not only hurt them as creators in IW but will hurt IW itself because of the messege this creator is sending out in her SL profile.
We do want other creators & more residents to come & make IW their Home... we ourselves have invited many creators in, offered them shops & advise... I say again Advise on pricing, work arounds, etc etc But at the end of the day it is thier own customer base that will debate if they are too high in their pricing or not... if they feel its too high, they simply wont buy & sales will stop... so that is when any good & wise creator will take a good look at the world they are in & make the adjustments needed to please their customers within THAT world... not start a war amongst your competitors & troll them because of Advise they gave.
So to all VW creators out there we assure You that You are very welcome here in Inworldz The Founders are the best you will ever come across... the community is still growing & thriving in spite of what some trolls are trying to do... best thing to do with trolls is ignore them & eventually they will get the messege
If you agree it is the right of a vendor to choose their prices, then why is there a "war" over their prices in the first place? Are you really generalizing this to all virtual businesses as you say, or is this simply a personal attack on an individual?
ReplyDeleteHow can there be such aggressive conflict and public pressuring when you agree that it is the store owner's right to decide on pricing, and the customers' right to decide whether to buy it or not? To me, this so-called war is a euphemism for failing to respect that the business decisions of a business owner are those of that business owner. Second, the technical argument itself does not hold up: I think you need to reread the second half of the forum thread you referred to.
How is calling someone a troll and posting this kind of trollbait somehow ignoring them?
You CANNOT stop a business owner from setting there own prices. You can criticize them and ridicule them and publicly berate them and run them out of town, but if that is what this has become, then it is not a community I wish to be a part of. I am very disappointed in this disrespect for the rights of business owners to make their own business decisions, and the extents to which the bloggers are going to fight this "war" that simply does not need to be fought. It cannot be won; it's the decision of the business owner. All it will do is divide the community.
We have never tried to stop anyone from doing business their way Jim as you well know, knowing both of us... No one was told You must do it this way or that way... not one person was named in any posting that I saw in the forums... until the creator in question became abusive to one of the residents then deleted her words afterwards, knowing probably that she could be reprimanded for such... I like you, have a Right to talk on my blog, just as You have a right to talk on yours & have done so in regard to this same creator... what gives you the right & not I? I brought my feelings here, rather than into the forums.. We Love IW & have supported its growth from almost day one... This creator is giving IW a bad name by her sheer madness over this.. and if you dont believe me then you go to SL & look at her profile, then go look at ours...
ReplyDeleteRegards
Rosa ;)
This comment has been removed by the author.
ReplyDeleteMy main concern is NOT the personal battle; there I just think all side should stop posting inflammatory arguments on public blogs that refer to a personal conflict.
ReplyDeleteMy main concern is the multiple-person campaign of intimidation against content creators that want to operate in multiple grids. Calling them exploitative, badmouthing the practice in numerous ways. Mixing the personal battle above with those in a false effort to tie the two topics together trying to make consistent pricing some kind of crime. It's not, it's just good business sense. And it's their choice.
This is my notice that I will fight against anyone who attempts to interfere with the pricing policies of another business through public pressure. InWorldz is no place for gang mentalities and lynch mobs even if you do not agree with the policies. It's wrong, and it's just not worth a big war. But if anyone attempts to force their views on others, I will post the counter argument. And that's what I see going on here. Just read the last couple of pages of that forum thread again and it's clear why some businesses MUST provide consistent pricing across grids. If there is a lesson to be learned, it's up to the business to learn it.
BTW, my specific objection is this part:
ReplyDelete"Why has this war taken place you might wonder? Because of pricing... most residents feel, ourselves included... that there is not a need for creators from SL to bring their content here & double the price tag, which is exactly what a lot of them have been doing."
It's not a crime, and it doesn't need a smear campaign.
Jim I have sold content in 4 other grids, one of which doesnt even have a currency... I have not seen any bias against merchants selling in other grids, but in all of those grids I have sold in... I have priced items against the economy of each grid... You have to take in the current Market in each grid, any good creator & sound business will do that... what we have seen happening in IW is some creators doubling the prices of everywhere else they sell in... I for one dont think that is fair, but as i said that is up to each individual, we dont do it because we dont like to feel we are ripping ppl off & had we doubled our prices that is exactly what we would have felt. Don't forget up until April this year GJCR had a presence in SL too, we dont any longer because of a lot of things.. for one i wont create in a grid where my content is not seen as being MINE by the owner of said grid... its another reason why i pulled out from others too though some of my stuff is stuck in OLG & still selling from last I viewed my account there.. no use to me as i cant get the money out... in IW you CAN get the money out... it isnt IW's fault that Lindens have devalued & your not getting what you once did get when you do cash out, simple answer, we wait to cash out till IW have an exchange.
ReplyDeleteNo your right it isnt a crime, but dont you think its a shame that IW Residents are being charged double the price? You fight for what You believe in by all means & we will continue to ask for fair prices for IW Residents
As for a smear campaign, it was your own blog that brought this whole thing to our attention, without that we would never have known there was a war going on because most of the posts in the IW forums, the bad ones, were deleted by the said creator..
I am not smearing anyone I have simply wrote my feelings about this whole business just as you yourself have
Regards
rosa ;)
"I have priced items against the economy of each grid... You have to take in the current Market in each grid, any good creator & sound business will do that"
ReplyDeleteSee that's the kind of thing that just doesn't work for me. No one has to do anything but whatever they feel is best for them. But you are calling anyone who does not do this whatever the opposite of a "good creator" is, and saying their business is not sound. If you are a full rights multi-grid vendor of textures and sculpties, inconsistent pricing can mean you are undercutting your own business on one grid with the business on the other.
"I for one dont think that is fair, but as i said that is up to each individual, we dont do it because we dont like to feel we are ripping ppl off"
That is a statement that such a business person is unfair and ripping people off, and yet you say you are not smearing those who believe it is okay to have the opposite opinion. You aren't just stating your opinion that prices should not match those from SL; you are insulting and tarnishing anyone with the counter-opinion.
"Fair prices" are the ones the market will bear. That's it. If the products don't sell, you can bet the prices will come down on their own, or for multi-grid vendors of builder's products, the products are more likely to be withdrawn from markets where they cannot sell at a consistent price with other grids. That's just business. There's nothing unfair, there's no rip-off, and certainly nothing unsound about it. The only thing unfair here is to put down the integrity of any business owner who for business reasons may need or want to have consistent pricing across grids.
And they aren't being charged double the price.
ReplyDeleteIf something that sells for L$ 100 in SL sells for 200 I'z$ in IW, the InWorldz folks are getting a 7% discount. It's just an exchange rate. Reread the forum thread, they explained it well there.
Jim I am not saying those words YOU are, You are reading into my words, my feelings what You want to read then trying to call me out on it saying I am putting everyone else down... I say again its our 'Feeling' our 'Thought' our 'Opinion' which we have a right to just as you have a right to Yours, but dont come here & tell me what I am really saying is this or that or the other... because it is isnt... again You are taking ppl's thoughts, feelings & opinions as an attack on All Creators... oh 1st I was attacking one creator, according to You, now I am attacking all, when I am not attacking anyone.
ReplyDeleteYou are the only one here attacking! You are attacking me for the way I think, I feel & for having my own opinion on things.
Regards
Rosa ;)
So what you are saying Jim is we can say anything we want about the person in question on a personal level. But because we don't like her business practices we're not allowed to say anything about that? Honestly this is how WE feel about this person.
ReplyDeleteIt's not her old prices actually that I had much problem with. Yes I felt they were high. Even in SL I would have thought they were HIGH. I just didn't buy them. I didn't them however say one damn word nor tell anyone else NOT to buy there. In fact I bought rosa one of their fae skin packages.
One thing is for certain those that create textures and sculpt maps do have a harder time in pricing. As yes they're the ones that must attempt to keep prices equal. Yes I get that! Never said they shouldn't.
What I don't believe is right however. Is for once a creator then decides, "Well the market for this isn't so good at my prices. I know I'll make QUALITY things so cheap it screws everyone over since they wouldn't buy my things before!" THAT's exactly what this person did.
I don't believe in that and that is NOT a fair business practice. Why? Because they just don't feel now they can actually compete in IW so they stoop to that level. Because now IW is just their idol time.
If you want to read more of what I said since it seems to have been missed or overlooked by everyone else here's another link.
http://gaiuscaesar71.livejournal.com/
Well you folks have to decide whether you feel this is an unfair practice in general, to which I will protest, or if you feel it's unfair in the specific case of one vendor (which to me means you aren't being fair). When I read this:
ReplyDelete"Why has this war taken place you might wonder? Because of pricing... most residents feel, ourselves included... that there is not a need for creators from SL to bring their content here & double the price tag, which is exactly what a lot of them have been doing."
That does not seem to be directed to one vendor. So I have to conclude that in general you feel that businesses should not be allowed to do this, or should be shamed into abandoning this practice even if it IS the most appropriate model for their business.
Again, if this is a general statement of principle, I disagree and feel it's not our place to try to influence our philosophies into other businesses. It's difficult enough to determine a good pricing model in a new world without criticism from others there. If it's just a personal attack on ONE vendor, as Rosa seems to be saying in her reply, then... well I will back away from that, but at the very least, the wording in the original is very unclear.
As you know this is not the first such article on this, and I have seen a long campaign now against business flexibility and I am just very tired of the daily assault on consistent pricing across grids. If that is not what this is about, then that's great, but it sure looked that way when I read the quote above.
Excuse me Jim, but the Only Person who has been attacked here or dare I say 'trolled' is me by You! This is a community Rag, which I started on ning in 2009... I have always reported on the happenings inworld... just as I did on my OP Yesterday. I reported on the feelings of the community that were involved in this whole debate. How it happened, what caused it & what entailed because of it... what happened is exactly as i reported in my OP, the outcome was exactly as i reported it in my OP. There isn't a 'need' for creators to double their prices. If they do then thats is their right, I may not like it, I may think its unfair, but THAT is their right. What isnt right is what that creator then did because she 'felt' she was personally attacked by IW Residents but the only person who actually attacked anyone & i include IW in that attack, was that creator & now You of me.
ReplyDeleteSo well done Jim, not only are ppl now afraid to speak their mind on the IW Forums but they may also be afraid to speak their minds on their OWN bloody blogs! Well done! Big round of applause to You.
Regards
Rosa ;)
Since I seemed to have been ignored here. Though I did comment after all this back and forth. Let me say what this was actually about. It wasn't actually about for us anyway a creator that wanted to double her price to keep market value. As there's not one thing wrong with doing such a thing. Be her prices too high which in our opinion they were fine we didn't buy them.
ReplyDeleteThe problem was she took this as an attack from the beginning! It was nothing to do with her personally. It was just some of us saying, there are some that have bad attitudes that seem to have a big name from SL. The fact that her prices were high is another thing though not actually relevant in my opinion why it was thrown in there I have no real idea.
Quite a few in that forum thread said WHY they did what they did price wise. In fact I remember saying anyone can charge anything they wish. It's me that decides if I want to pay their prices. Do you honestly think for a moment Jim, that we make everything we do without one bit of help or buying from another?
We shop ALOT actually. We're just picky about where. We did even BUY on thing this particular person made and why? Because we felt it was worth the price she put on it. Though it had nothing to do with the textures or sculpts.
Did we attach her? No, if we did the day she filed that harassment complaint on us no doubt we'd be OUT of IW by now. She likes to play the woe is me they're all out to get me game. When yes some may be though it's not at least to us about her prices. It's about her attitude and how she treats others and says things then DELETES what she says so no one can say anything?
Yes that's being brave! When she even states in her profile to the contrary as such, "If someone would like to know about how I feel about something or what my opinion may be, then man or woman up and ask. This he said she said shit is just that .. shit. Cloak and dagger copy and paste shouldn't be necessary in an adult community." It's things like that that made this all start. You can if you like speak against it though she speaks volumes all on her own.
Though this may too go ignored since my last comment seemed to. Perhaps it's just easier to speak out on a female as they're emotions run differently and they may feel worse for things that are said. We all have feelings and yes I know that creator does too. Though she certainly forgot all that when she started saying all her nastiness as well.
Wishing all well,
Gaius Caesar
I guess you're expecting a reply since I'm seeing repeated lengthy messages that you are being ignored. No, I made my point before. You can call me a troll but I am just someone who feels an injustice is being done towards cross-grid businesses. But it seems you didn't get it and construed this as me twisting words or whatever.
ReplyDeleteI hesitated on posting a reply, because you are my friend. You are both good people. I know in your heart you feel you are doing the right thing, as I do too. And while I feel very passionately that it is no one's business except the business owner's to determine their own pricing, I don't know how strongly you feel the opposite. It seems you feel quite strongly that consistent pricing is not needed, and unfair to InWorldz. Unfortunately, if this is part of the campaign against consistent pricing, I will sacrifice a friendship for something I see as a fundamental right of business owners that does not seem to be getting respected by multiple bloggers.
But more importantly, what you or I say about it does not matter. Do I tell you your prices are too high or too low? No. Because it's none of my business. It's not our business to tell others how to price their goods. Literally.
It's only our decision to buy or not. The market will decide if prices are too high or too low. At least that's the way it *should* be. If you let it be that way.
Then I suggest You re read my OP
ReplyDeleteand I quote!
We do want other creators & more residents to come & make IW their Home... we ourselves have invited many creators in, offered them shops & advise... I say again Advise on pricing, work arounds, etc etc But at the end of the day it is thier own customer base that will debate if they are too high in their pricing or not... if they feel its too high, they simply wont buy & sales will stop... so that is when any good & wise creator will take a good look at the world they are in & make the adjustments needed to please their customers within THAT world... not start a war amongst your competitors & troll them because of Advise they gave.
No one Has been told they MUST price in a certain way, there was a debate on the forum... someone asked the question.. why... we all gave our own Opinions, which we are entitled to give... Then all hell broke loose... It is a Forum for free discussion it should NEVER be turned into a Slanging Match, but that is exactly what happened & because of that some Residents are now no longer using the Forum to voice their Opinions for fear of being Trolled... THAT is a Change within our world & THAT is exactly what I was reporting on CHANGES
True Friends will agree to disagree if you feel we can no longer be friends because we have differing views then so be it... that is Your choice.... but I attacked No one in my OP
regards
Rosa ;)
(Above post removed for posting without signature only)
ReplyDeleteJim we don't mind that you have a differing view on anything. We've often said even the best of friends even family members will disagree on hot topics. It's just part of being an individual. Actually I'm pleased you do stick up for what you feel as much as we do.
Where did I say you were a troll? Where did I say it was about pricing? If you read my replies here I never once said that. I don't have a anything against anyone for pricing how they feel. In fact I know I said sculpt and texture creators certainly SHOULD price the same across Grids. It would be almost foolish not to.
The argument is that one creator took things that were said personally when they weren't meant to be. Which is fine. That was her right. Though why was that? Perhaps what was said hit a little too close to home? That however wasn't our doing. That was her feelings and choice. No one forced her to change things either. Again her choice.
Honestly there's no more reason to argue and no we don't hate you nor dislike you for having a differing opinion. Hell while we may not like everything you say. We will agree and fight for your right to say it! As that's what everyone has a right to do.
It wasn't about the creator in questions prices. It was about her other practices. She was and is in a lot of minds still known for her lashing out just to be mean and hate filled. Because she feels that need. Then she'd delete said things and the powers that be never had the chance to see them. How right is that? That's how good business is done?
At least when you, I or rosa say something. We at least stick up and leave our words not remove them from the public eye. Why I wonder? I have to think or at least hope it's because we're not cowards and stick by what we say and believe in hopes perhaps that someone will change our minds?
I'll say this in closing as I know all of us by now must be tired of fighting over this. We do want you as a friend. Certainly you do a LOT to help IW. We have done much to help each other and others no doubt. That's the spirit of IW. I and rosa even attempted to help the creator that was in question. We're as Residents of IW do like helping. Sometimes however we will be on opposite sides of an issue.
Wishing all well,
Gaius Caesar
I don't have anything more to say on this. Don't expect another reply. I'm not ignoring you; I just don't see any point in repeating the same arguments over and over. Because I am not a troll. I just feel the first posting Aug 20th was out of line, and this is the 15th discussion that I am aware of on the same topic since then.
ReplyDeleteIt needless divides the community into two camps, when supposedly there is an agreement (I think) that it is the decision of the business owner, and that the market should decide. Right? Do we agree on that? Can we leave it at that?
At any rate, I hope I'm done with this topic. Unless there is something new, I see no point in replying to the same arguments.
Yes we agree on those two things. No more needs be said on this in our opinion either. We do thank you for your reply.
ReplyDeleteWishing you all well,
Gaius Caesar